Howdypedia talk:Style guide

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[edit] Capitalization

After exchanging many words with Sagacious and Sivius, I've decided it'd be best to bring this publically to our vast audience. Essentially, there are a number of things, units and buildings primarily (gunslinger, general store, etc.), which, depending on how you see things, should either be capitalized (General Store), or uncapitalized (general store).

I argue that these things are all generic objects/units, and thus should not be capitalized. I cite mainly this YPPedia discussion, and in particular, this comment: "Objects in the game are often capitalized because items in a list or a hover-tip are fragments - it looks unprofessional to have items in a list start with a lowercase letter." And, to Bang! Howdyize an example from that page, would you rather have: "I went to the General Store and bought a Shotgun to unlock the Shotgunner, and then purchased a Poncho," or "I went to the general store and bought a shotgun to unlock the shotgunner, and then purchased a poncho"?

Sivius argues that the units and such are proper names. We couldn't seem to make much headway, so we'll put it up to the community to sort out. --Emufarmers 00:10, 4 July 2006 (EDT)

My only argument is with the units, each word should be capitalized. --Sivius 00:20, 4 July 2006 (EDT)

Well, you originally said buildings too. >.> We're debating just the units, then. /e goes to the Grocery Store. --Emufarmers 00:31, 4 July 2006 (EDT)

I'd leave capitalization redirects in! I have a bad habit of capitalizing the second word, and it would be nice to have General Store redirect to General store to prevent my idoicies from slowing me down. :) -TT 00:47, 4 July 2006 (EDT)

That's not really the issue we're debating; such redirects are unnecessary because searching for "General Store" (or "gENEral StoRe") will take you to "General store" regardless. It's not practical to have such redirects for the sake of making your job of linking easier, and it would be unwise to do so, because we always simplify links for stylistic reasons (that is, link to a page, rather than to a redirect to that page). --Emufarmers 00:52, 4 July 2006 (EDT)

/e tries it. /e blinks. "Since when does that work on a wiki? Ahem. This is not the stupid comment you're looking for. Jedi hand wave.-TT 00:58, 4 July 2006 (EDT)

I'd go with the lower-case. I don't really see why we'd capitalize. If we're doing General Store, why not Shotgunner? If we're doing Shotgunner, why not Shotgun? Why not Cards, Points, Advance Order and Unit? It would be a different story if the shops in the other towns actually had different names, but I doubt they will. --Paladin

At the moment, we are doing Shotgunner on some pages... I suppose I can change that. -TT 01:13, 4 July 2006 (EDT)

One would argue Shotgunner is the units name. --Sivius 01:15, 4 July 2006 (EDT)

But it's a shotgunner. My cavalry's name is Bob. --Paladin

I said the same thing to Sivvy (although mine's called Myron). I do see where he's coming from, though: The way the game refers to the units, with, "he's great for picking up nuggets" and such, as well as how you only get one unit of each type, almost makes them seem individual, and maybe, as he suggested, big shots (lowercased) will be customizable someday, but...I see all the units as cookie-cutter troops, as in Warcraft III (your heroes get names there, but they're still known by their unit types!).

With regards to TT, we're wildly inconsistent on this issue at the moment. I want us to settle it before we homogenize the pages one way or the other. (Bot status might be justified for that.) At present, all sorts of terms are capitalized in various articles, becauses, as was noted in the article I linked to, people have a tendency to capitalize unfamiliar terms. (I do it myself, to be sure.) --Emufarmers 01:31, 4 July 2006 (EDT)

Red Alert has Tanyas and mammoth tanks. Tanya is an actual character in the story. I doubt Bang! Howdy's setting is a culture where it is normal to name your children after the type of unit they're going to be, and then train them to be it.

"Chew on this!" (And yeah, I got into that with Sivius when he brought up Trickster Raven. Tanya kicked a lot more ass howdy booty than the gunslinger, though. --Emufarmers 01:43, 4 July 2006 (EDT)

Yes, before we go any further, we must ask ourselves... what the hell is a Trickster Raven? It can't really be a name, it's an Indian! The name would be something like 'Raven that tricks while running through wood'. Duh! Anyway, I don't see why we can't have both 'shotgunner' and 'Trickster Raven', using 'mammoth tank' and 'Tanya' as an example. Outside the campaign mode, you could have loads of Tanyas. --Paladin

Too late to join the party? With units and urm stuff, they are names, and in my view of the english language - should be capitalised in each instance. There isn't a reason why we should override english spelling rules *shrugs*. --Sagacious 06:31, 4 July 2006 (EDT)

Of course, but the argument is about whether it's really that kind of name. I mean, one could argue 'shotgun' is the name of that type of weapon, yet we don't capitalize it. It's just a shotgunner, some dude with a shotgun. --Paladin

Names of something human or animal should be capitalised. So if it's a dude with a gun, it's a dude, and should be capitalised. --Sagacious 10:42, 4 July 2006 (EDT)

What? So a person who drives cars is a Driver? Those people that work in the kitchen are called Chefs? Legal representation is taken care of by Lawyers? And there's Moms, Dads... I'm sure there are cooler examples I'm not thinking of. The name is Bob. --Paladin

And does this mean it's Sharpshooter and Shotgunner, but dirigible and steam gunman? --Paladin

I have never in my life heard the word "shotgunner." It's fictional. And thus, name-worthy. --Sivius 11:09, 4 July 2006 (EDT)

Nor had I ever heard of a prism tower or a whisking potion, but within the fictional world, it's just the term for them. --Paladin

Those are objects, though. --Sivius 12:48, 4 July 2006 (EDT)

Fine, chrono legionnaire. What about something non-fictional, such as a sharpshooter, combined with the argument that it's just a normal term within the fictional world? And is it 'sharpshooter' and 'Shotgunner'? --Paladin

To the "it's fictional, so it should be capitalized" argument, I have to quote that other discussion again: 'I think the tendency to capitalize things like iron monger is due to unfamiliarity. "Name" is a bit ambiguous, because the name of this thing sitting on my desk is a "pen". However, you'd never say it's titled "Pen".' Merriam-Webster does recognize shotgunner as a word, by the way. --Emufarmers 14:34, 4 July 2006 (EDT)

'Pen' is not a 'proper noun' - e.g. A name that should be capitalised according to the English language. As such, it has no relevance to this discussion.

There is nothing anywhere to suggest that a '*pedia' should be exempt from basic English rules. Words that may or may not exist as real words such as 'Gunslinger', 'Shotgunner' - are used in the context of an animate name. Because of their context, they become proper nouns and should be capitalised upon each instance. --Sagacious 20:35, 4 July 2006 (EDT)

Why would the context make it a proper noun when it's still just a shotgunner, a guy with a shotgun? If Three Rings hadn't given it this designation yet, but instead just a code or something like FRONTIER_UNIT_1, we'd probably still refer to it as a shotgunner, because that's what it is. --Paladin

Professions are not names. They're not necessarily titles, either; John might be a baker, but you'd only capitalize that if it were John the Baker (or John Baker, in modern terms). The same is true for our friend John, who is employed by the local militia, and is skilled in the art of marksmanship; he's a shotgunner. The leader of the militia doesn't really care what John's name is; he's just a shotgunner. That doesn't make his name "Shotgunner"; it just means that he'll be referred to as such for convenience, much as you might say, "hey, waiter, get me another drink."

Something can have a name without being animate (the White House), and something animate can not have a name (a rabbit). (Sniped by Paladin.)--Emufarmers 00:11, 5 July 2006 (EDT)

Read the Frontier Gazette, the Shotgunner is referred to as "The Shotgunner" multiple times in proper sentences. I'm fairly certain that this is plenty enough to show that "Shotgunner" is it's correct name, (they made it, they named it, you can't tell them otherwise). --Sivius 03:34, 5 July 2006 (EDT)

For what it's worth, OOO is very caps-happy pretty much everywhere; if you look at the official documentation on the YPPedia, they captialize all sorts of things which the rest of the wiki has agreed should not be capitalized. (They're also wildly inconsistent in their usage; take a look at Official:Navigation, and you'll see what I mean. Navigation and Navigator are capitalized in some places, and not in others; ditto with Constellations. Regarding the official documentation, someone could fix it, but everybody has been so touchy about any efforts to modify that namespace without permission that it won't happen unless someone asks.) The same would probably be true here. --Emufarmers 04:22, 5 July 2006 (EDT)

OOO can be as "caps-happy" as they like, that doesn't mean it's wrong, it also doesn't mean you can alter the only given information we have. They've capitalized every unit name in every instance I've seen.

Just because the word shares a definition with an adjective and what the unit is like, does not mean it can't be the unit's name.

On the topic of Trickster Raven, look at native history, most natives had names which are Adjecive-Animal type names, an example being Red Bear. Are you saying Red Bear isn't allowed to capitalize his/her name? --Sivius 05:30, 5 July 2006 (EDT)

Sure, 'Trickster Raven' can be a name, but 'shotgunner' can't. Well it could be, but those would be some cruel parents. 'Jarmen Kell' versus 'rebel'. I'm willing to go along with capitalizing the first letters for unit names, though, I just don't think it will be very pretty. And that Frontier Gazette did call it 'the Shotgunner'. Not just 'Shotgunner'. --Paladin

I don't see how you can argue that these aren't the unit's titles (as proper nouns), even though every instance in any official documantation treats it as such. You just can't say Shotgunner isn't the units name/title because you think it looks better.

"The" has absolutly no relevace, it could easily aswell signify infamy, such as, "The Clint Eastwood." --Sivius 08:36, 5 July 2006 (EDT)

I understand there are reasons you could capitalize, but are you really claiming it's the name of a person? "Hello everyone, I am Shotgunner. My friend Sharpshooter and I would like to thank you for unlocking us."? Really? The documentation is less relevant than the 'The'. They have probably given it no more than five seconds thought themselves (arguably a good idea). If the documentation makes a mistake in their English, do we all have to do it too? And is it okay to say "The Shotgunner, a shotgunner, also damages units on the tiles to the left and right of the target."? Or maybe even without that 'the', "Shotgunner, a shotgunner...". --Paladin

The documentation has no mistake in their English, they named the unit, they can capitalize it as such. If it's capitalized like that (which, again, in every instance it is), it's the units name. It's not that hard for you to understand. --Sivius 10:50, 5 July 2006 (EDT)

*Deep breath*

'The' has no relevance to capitalisation. You don't say 'when The Shotgunner was used', cause that'd be wrong. Unless OOO and the official stuff say 'The Shotgunner' - we shall refer to it as 'Shotgunner'. They are proper nouns - named as the 'character/unit' in-game. They can obviously see when they wrote the game, because of the context of their name, they should be capitalised. Icannotbelievewearestilldebatingoverthis! --Sagacious 11:17, 5 July 2006 (EDT)

The "it's how it is ingame" argument just don't fly; the YPPedia's method of dealing with this is not at all the same way as things are capitalized in the documentation. Look at any official game docs page: Capitals are used for emphasis, not for any ordered reason. (Official:Bilge: Everything is lowercased in the first paragraph, but in the second paragraph, Bilge Pumping is capitalized, and so is Pirates. In the third paragraph, Sea Battle is capitalized. In the fourth paragraph Bilge Pumping is capitalized again, and so is Space Bar. In the eight paragraph, Duty puzzles is only partially capitalized, and in the ninth, Bilge is. In the eleventh paragraph, Duty is capitalized once again, but puzzles isn't, and in the thirteenth paragraph, they capitalize Bingo. It's certainly haphazard, or at least at odds with the established norms of the wiki, and English convention. --Emufarmers 13:54, 5 July 2006 (EDT)

While I'm at it, it's worth noting that if we're going to follow OOO stylistic considerations at all times, then based on the news/blog, we will need to capitalize not only every unit, but every bonus, building, game object, and even Big Shot (which Sivius deliberately removed to big shot). We'll also have to capitalize keys on the keyboard, and the article of building names (that is, The Ranch)—but only some of the time, because it lapses between The Ranch, the Ranch, and the ranch at various points. If you want proof as to how impossible following the highly stylized cowboy-speak of OOO on the wiki is, that oughta do it. --Emufarmers 14:02, 5 July 2006 (EDT)

We aren't YPPedia though. And I really wish we could just follow the English language for once - thus bringing this pointless debate to a close. The length of this talk page is rediculous. --Sagacious 15:22, 5 July 2006 (EDT)

That's the best precedent we have on the matter (unless you can find a similar debate on Wikipedia or the like). The English language does not use capital letters for emphasis, generally; that is what OOO is doing. Whether or not it's "right," it isn't common convention. As to the veracity of this discussion, it is far more important that you give it credit: While it may seem like a trivial matter, this is probably the single-most important stylistic/grammatical choice we'll ever make. (It will affect scores and scores of pages.) --Emufarmers 01:32, 6 July 2006 (EDT)

I'm going to repeat this for Sagacious; we are not YPPedia, nor are we Wikipedia. We have nearly enough proof to assume the given are the unit's names. --Sivius 05:27, 6 July 2006 (EDT)

They aren't doing it for emphasis! *scream* --Sagacious 10:25, 6 July 2006 (EDT)

Look at this here; notice how every game term is bolded and capitalized? If that ain't emphasis, I don't know what is. (And, as I've stated, if we're going to follow the standard of the units all having their names as proper names, then all the buildings, bonuses, and words like "Big Shot" will have to be treated as such, because by your standard, all of those terms are named as such. (Names aren't something magically reserved for humans; if the gunslinger is a unique, named person, then the ranch is a unique, named building [and we will indeed have to say, "The Ranch," because that's exactly how they do it here!]). --Emufarmers 22:47, 6 July 2006 (EDT)

They are not capitalising for emphasis - they are using bold for emphasis :-/ --Sagacious 23:38, 6 July 2006 (EDT)

They're using bold, sure: But they're using capitals. Why else would they capitalize terms that are uncapitalized in other blog entries? (And you still haven't responded to whether or not you would agree that all the capitalized terms in that entry would need to be capitalized in that manner as well.) --Emufarmers 00:40, 7 July 2006 (EDT)

Yes they would. All the bolded things in that article are capitalised because they are proper names. As such, they should also be capitalised but not bolded here. (Ooops I booched it! --Sagacious 15:01, 8 July 2006 (EDT)

Er...So, to provide an extreme example, I would say, "I was playing in Frontier Town, and my Gunslinger picked up the Iron Plate; four ticks later she shot my opponent's Big Shot (the Old Codger) and returned to the Claim."? I think the most that anybody else here is suggesting is that we capitalize unit names and town names, and I don't think anybody else has actually suggested using bolding. Git on IRC and talk with the boys when ya get the chance. --Emufarmers 02:53, 8 July 2006 (EDT)

I never suggested bolding. I am saying that the blog entry uses bolding to emphasise the names rather than the capitalisation - which would be used with or without the need for emphasis. Windows Vista doesn't like mIRC right now. --Sagacious 14:59, 8 July 2006 (EDT)

Here's my vote. If you're talking about the unit as a class, for example discussing the merits of one unit over another, then capitalize: "The Tactician is a much better unit than the Gunslinger." However, if you're talking about an instance of the unit, don't capitalize: "Her gunslinger killed my tactician." Compare (if you will, even though this isn't Wikipedia): "The M1 Abrams main battle tank is the principal combat tank of the United States Army...."[1] -- "The term Main Battle Tank is applied to tanks designed to function as the backbone of modern ground forces."[2] It would follow that any time you use the plural, you're talking about a group of instances of the unit. E.g., "The Artillery is generally better than the Gunslinger, but not when tacticians are involved." -- Erdferkel 23:35, 6 July 2006 (EDT)

I actually kind of like that idea, although I'm not sure how easy it would be to follow in practice. --Emufarmers 00:40, 7 July 2006 (EDT)

It could be quite difficult to follow, especially to have new editors understand it and follow it. Although it seems to be one of the better ideas. --Sivius 02:43, 7 July 2006 (EDT)